God Is Out To Get Us

SAM STUDY 1:

2009-11-23T08:58:00.000-08:00

IN REVIEW:

What do we know about Judges?

Cycles of badness and captivity, punctuated by arrivals of new Judges.

[In the Old Testament, words and phrases are repeated for a reason. In Judges, the phrase, “People did what was right in their own eyes is often repeated.]

Samson set fields on fire. Then Delilah got his hair cut.

Around the same time Samson was judging Israel, Eli was a priest in Shiloh. Shiloh is a region in Samaria, by the sea of Galilee. It’s like backwoods Israel. Translated, Shiloh means. “His gift.” [Elizabeth was right!]

What did the priests actually do in OT?

· They performed the sacrifices.

· They had to go in the temple for set periods of time.

· They kept the sanctuaries clean.

· They ministered to the people.

· They blessed babies.

· They led holidays.

[Get this: There were 450 years between the end of the Old Testament and the beginning of the New Testament. Wow. And a lot of things happened between here and there.]

[Ruth is beautiful bc it was set in the era of Judges. In a time when people did what was right in their own eyes, Ruth and Naomi did what was right.]

Samuel grows up in the period after Judges.

Samuel and Samson are alike in that they were both set apart as Nazarites. Samson was already a well-known Judge, and Hannah so wanted to have a son that she was willing to give him away as a Nazarite.

The priests in the temple were corrupt. Even the common people knew that they were. Eli’s sons weren’t good. But Hannah gave him her son? What were her motives?

[Uh, good question. But there is no place where we see a definite answer. Hannah may have had enough faith in God that she knew God would use her son for His glory, even in a corrupt temple. Or maybe her home environment was worse than the temple environment.]

1 SAMUEL 1:15-18

It’s ironic that Eli assumes the worst in Hannah upon meeting her, but doesn’t see the wickedness in his own sons.

1 SAMUEL 1:19-28

Hannah bore a son and gave him to Eli when he was about three.

Hannah’s Prayer:

The context of her prayer [praying it after she gives Samuel away] makes the prayer more pure. She may even be saying it to assure herself.

Gearing up for Samuel

2009-11-17T09:17:00.000-08:00

Here are some photos of our timeline game from Sunday... For those of you who missed, Carol had us put together a timeline of all the events leading up to Samuel. For more visit: http://www.flickr.com/photos/q85/

Map It!

2009-11-17T05:36:00.000-08:00

This past Sunday we started our new study in 1 Samuel and as can be expected, I already have a homework assignment for everyone. *grin* Don't groan just yet.

It's called MAP IT! The idea is to map out your personal spiritual journey....using whatever creative medium you deem fitting. It can be a timeline, a collage, a photo, painting...anything you want. We had a few ideas floating around on Sunday, ranging from a few scrapbooking ideas to a full-fledged fashion show.

Since I foresee this project taking more than one night to complete, I am setting some guidelines to have certain phases of it completed in a specific timeframe. For the next two weeks, before our next meeting, you will need to outline what events/experiences/turning points in your life that you actually want to highlight through this project. Just brainstorm and make a list of what aspects of your story you want to include.

And then by mid-December you will need to have a good idea of what creative medium you want to use.

So have at it. Express yourself and share your story.

Turkey Fest

2009-11-02T07:09:00.000-08:00

WARNING: This gets a little preachy (I don't know why I feel the need to say all this) and has nothing to do with Job.

E and I go to the Vineyard some, which is a great gathering, especially when Joe is preaching. However, I kind of view this group (my friends / GIOTGU bible study) to be my real "Church". I think this is closer to the real vision Jesus had for the Church. Local families / friends who follow Christ together and help each other. We are also a part of the larger body (the kind even larger than the Vineyard) that can come together and really help a large number of people. This is why I love the Vineyard, because they have the resources to really help people.

It seems a lot of churches are so involved in paying for their own additions and parking lots and staff (or whatever) that they simply cannot afford to help other people out. For a long time I mistook this for them not caring. People in churches typically care, but they also have to pay the bills. This is the American church.

I want to be part of the part of the Church that helps people (not so much in practice, but in theory anyway). Luckily the Vineyard has presented a great opportunity in Turkey Fest. This is basically people gathering baskets of food for people who need help celebrating the Thanksgiving holiday. I think our small group of followers should fill at least one basket for Turkey Fest. Yea Us! I'll be sure to pick up a basket from the Vineyard on the 15th and bring it to the bible study and whoever wants to pitch in we can go shopping for stuff that evening before or after bible study.

Follow this link to learn more: https://www.vineyardcincinnati.com/vcc.php?id=967

Cb.

There once was a man named Job who lived in...Legoland!

2009-10-14T05:22:00.000-07:00

This is so genius that I am speechless!!! And CT is my hero for finding it!

I love LEGOS!

Check it out and be amazed.

http://www.thebricktestament.com/job/index.html

A goon's take on Job

2009-10-12T07:08:00.000-07:00

For those who have a twisted sense of humor like me....

Check this out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHPg3kjKBRc

It is not at all the conclusions I would make about Job, but it highlights the difficulty of studying this book.

The Point...According to Me....For Now

2009-10-11T15:42:00.000-07:00

Honestly...I feel like we don't have the right to know WHY God did what He did or why he does what he does. HE'S GOD!!! I'm all for asking the questions. I think that's part of the beautiful relationship with Him that we're granted. However, if He chooses not to give a reason behind His seeming madness, I feel like we just need to accept it and move on. We have to have faith that He knows what He's doing and go with it. He knows more than us. He sees our future. Maybe a situation seems entirely horrible and wrong and perhaps even cruel, but God had a reason for it happening.
I just really feel like the world has lost track of the magnitude of GOD. I mean...He created the universe. He causes earthquakes and hurricanes. He died for our sins. He rose from the dead! So honestly....if He doesn't want to give a cut and dry answer as to WHY He found it ok to let Satan mess with Job....I'm cool with it.
However....I do feel like Job's reaction to the whole situation is what we're supposed to focus on. He stays faithful to God. He's confident in their relationship and knows where He stands with God. He knows he hasn't done something horrible to be punished by God. I know there are times I wonder about where I stand with God, so it's interesting looking at Job and seeing him knowing exactly where he stands. I think it's amazing. Even when his friends are all condemning him, he doesn't back down and say, "Oh you're right. I must've really messed up somewhere along the way." He sticks to what he said. I love the story whether there's a cut and dry answer for the reasoning behind it or not. That's my opinion for now.

Enough

2009-10-06T09:16:00.000-07:00

So Elisabeth posed a question at Sunday’s bible study and I wanted to bring it into discussion here on this forum. (And so Elisabeth won’t boycott our study by saying I never answer her questions!)

The question: “What is the point of Job? Is this whole thing orchestrated so that Job grows into someone even better than when he started? Or is all of this just God randomly making a good man suffer?”

What is the point? I must admit, the several times that I have read and studied Job, I have often struggled with the same question. After all, it makes us feel better about the stories in the Bible if there is a clear-cut answer and resolution. Of course I think it is the same way in our lives – we seem to be able to handle challenging situations in life with a bit more gumption if we are permitted a reasonable explanation as to the WHY. We can hang onto hope a little bit longer when we know there is a purpose to our pain and suffering and trials.

That’s just human nature.

But to tell you the truth, I don’t know that the author of Job ever really gives us an answer to the WHY. And all of the information he does include -- the scene between God and Satan in the beginning, the cumbersome speeches of the five men at the heart of the book, and the cryptic response by God at the end where absolutely none of Job’s questions are addressed -- just makes that answer all the more elusive.

So what is the point? And how are we supposed to find it?

On Sunday night, I asked the question: ‘If you were Job, how would you want God to respond to you at this point? What would you want Him to do now that the rounds of speeches are over and everyone has said their peace?”

Some people said they’d just want God to show up – whatever form that might take – just knowing that He was listening and willing to show up would help. Others said they expect God to appear in the midst of all of the nay-sayers and prove their defense right – provide a little vindication for all of this unfair heartache.

Interesting enough, God does both for Job. He shows up and speaks truth into Job’s circumstance. And then there, in front of his friends/opposers, God fully restores him and says “Job has spoken truly of Me.”

So is that enough? Does that make it all OK – everything that God has put Job through?

From my own perspective, I believe the only answer that has any true bearing on the situation is what we glean from the man himself. After all, this is Job’s story. His response is what matters.

So how does Job respond?

He repents in dust and ashes and worships the LORD.

Whatever pain and disillusionment is in Job’s heart after this ordeal – however this pain and suffering has scarred his heart – the words of God from the whirlwind reach Job…even into the depths of him.

And that is enough. Job himself is content with that.

Can we really demand anything more? I am all for applying aspects of the truths told in this book to our own lives, but we have to let Job’s story remain HIS story.

And it is evident by his actions that how this story ends is “enough” for Job.

Even if we can’t understand the “how” or “why”.

What is the point of Job?

2009-10-05T16:56:00.001-07:00

So I'm talking to Chelley, well venting, about Job, still just trying to figure out the point of the story, and why they would include the behind the scenes stuff... and she had a very interesting explanation for the point of the story of Job... I'm letting her share that with you now:

This is Chelley speaking:

The REAL point of Job is to share with people that awful things are going to happen and you'll get through them. Yes, I realize this is a fairly well documented case. However, the writers of the Bible are trying to get people to believe in God, right? So the best way to answer people when they get whiny is to point to Job. What preacher these days doesn't? Job is a representation of the absolute worst possible situation. It was made so horrible because the people writing couldn't possibly know what was going to happen in the future. So you make the worst imaginable scenario up, so that hundreds of years from now when people are reading this, they can relate on some level.

Elisabeth back:

So, Chelley believes that Job is propaganda. I just thought her take on it was interesting, and I can definitely see where she is coming from... but maybe the reason Job is in the Bible, is to focus on the friends of Job... and to learn that when life gets rough, the best response is just to shut up and admit that you don't know why... I don't know... still stewing...

Get Real...

2009-09-28T19:02:00.000-07:00

How many of you would talk to someone that never talked back? Ever met one of those people that you talk to and its like talking to a brick wall? Its exhausting to try to get them to say much of anything at all, IF anything at all. Its not like you go out of your way to "connect" with them. If they aren't interested in talking to you, why bother? It wouldn't matter to me if that person was a celebrity or just some normal everyday person, or even someone that everyone thought was really cool. I consider conversation the core of most all relationships, so its pointless without them. Ever had one of those people you REALLY wanted to be friends with, but they just didn't seem to interested or care all that much at all to make the effort to be your friend? Maybe they thought they were better, or didn't see the worth in the effort. Think of all those scenarios where you felt "left out" and that is my conversation with God. He pisses me off. I don't want to talk to someone or something that doesn't want to talk to me. If you don't think I am worthy or valued enough to speak to me in a way i hear you, then i give up. If he cares so much, why all the silence?? Maybe I am not listening right? HE IS GOD, HE should know what is going to get through to me. So in all the frustration and trying to make it work between us,I must be doing something wrong and I figure He is going to take more drastic measures...bring me to my knees...take something from me (death of something I love), give me some terminal disease to make me turn to HIM, but I think that will piss me off more, but I fear it. Seems futile for HIM to do that because I am here, I am willing, I am open and wanting...it is HIM that is holding back. You don't give silent treatment to someone you want. How the hell is that supposed to make ME FEEL? Loved? protected? desired? worthy? No...just left out, unworthy and angry. So congratulations to all of you that must be doing something right and hear the voice of God...

A modern day Job?

2009-09-28T13:30:00.001-07:00

For those of you who didn't get the email, Sarah White sent this out earlier today, and reading it, I couldn't help but think of Job... Please pray for this man if you get a chance.

This is Sarah's email:

Sad story and I need you all to come together with me before our God.

A good friend of the family, who actually video-ed our wedding, his wife died on saturday.

Background story: THey got married about a year or less ago. Before the wedding she (name is Lisa) got into a terrible car accident and almost lost her foot. She was wheeled down the aisle and he picked her up to be on stage with him. She got better and could walk (she was at my wedding), but i guess still had pain. Before that she has had terrible back trouble for years (not sure why). I guess its gotten progressively worse and she went to the doctor last week who couldnt give her anything strong enough to take the pain away. Although he did still prescribe her a strong pain med. To make a long story short, apparently with the intensity of the pain with the guilt of what she's put her husband through with her being like this (and also she carried a lot of debt into this marriage bc of her ex-husband in the previous one years ago, which she felt a lot of guilt for), and not feeling like anything could get better, she intentionally overdosed in their bathroom early saturday morning. To which he woke up and found her, and tried unsuccessfully to revive her.

I dont understand this.

And Im still in disbelief as I write this because although I did not know her all that well everytime I saw her she seemed like the happiest woman. I know her husband a lot better and he is like one of the best guys anyone could have. He's like 40 and she was his first wife. He waited all this time just to only have her for like less than a year. Its not fair. And to add on top of things, his mom died just a few months ago. I'm grieving for him. And i need you all to, i mean HE needs you all to cry out to the father on his behalf. I dont know how anyone could be comforted after something like this. Its seems like this broken heart cannot be healed. But somewhere in there I must believe that God has a plan. somewhere.

Please... if you just have a moment, or a minute to get on your knees for Jeff Hood. He needs healing which can ONLY be found in Jesus.

Thank you all.

Bad Theology or A Better Relationship?

2009-09-28T13:02:00.000-07:00

So on Friday I posted a blog about the book Angry Conversations with God. My blog imports itself into Facebook as a means for me to keep my digital life connected. I have friends on Facebook who do not read this blog at it's web home because they didn't/don't know it exists.

So when the above mentioned entry imported itself into Facebook my friend Bill made a comment about the entry. His comment was, "being mad at God is a result of very bad theology, not tough life experiences."

Now first off let me say a couple things. Although Bill and I have never met in person (or at least not that I remember). We both have served in a similar style ministries and I consider him a friend and not some random troll out to cause issues. I do not consider Bill's comment as something negative.

I asked Bill to further explain his thoughts and he did. I haven't been able to read and digest everything he wrote yet but I do want to share some of my initial thoughts.

For some, my blatant, honest, and unguarded conversations with God are disrespectful to Him. For some being angry, confused, hurt, upset, etc are unjust emotions to take/give or displace on God.

I used to subscribe to many of those same thoughts. I chose my words wisely, went to God with much fear, and always tried to be the good little girl.

But here's the thing - in acting like that I didn't let God be all He could be. God is not surprised by what I feel - He created me. He knows where my short comings are, what sets me off, etc. He also knows the depth of my emotions and the grandeur of how I feel them. Part of His recreation of me - was renewing my heart to a point where a Hallmark commercial can make me cry and the length at which I will go to protect.

For me to be anything other than who I am in my conversations with Him just seems like I am only giving Him part of me. It's only shows the heads side of the coin and acting like the tails side doesn't exist.

Why would God ask us to join Him in a relationship if we were only allowed to show and say the good stuff? How many of your Earthly relationships only contain the happiness, joy, and the other good feelings/emotions? I can't think of one Earthly relationship where it's all good. Every friend I have has weathered a storm with me. They have been there with me when I needed to talk through the hurt, pain, and confusion. They have also been there when we laughed so hard we were in tears.

I cannot fathom that God only wants the cleaned up version of me. That I am only allowed to speak to Him if I am polite, calm, and have no issues. Even my earthly father (who is not the greatest father on Earth) doesn't want that. He wants me to be able to talk to him no matter what I am feeling and if my Earthly Father wants that - how can God not?

I can't sit here and line out verse after verse to prove my point but I can tell you this - when I started having open and honest communication with God everything changed. God interacted with more love and compassion than ever before. He sat and listened and responded. He helped me learn to see His plan. He showed me more of Himself in His people than ever before.

God became more of a Father because I let myself be more known by Him. Maybe it's bad theology - I dunno but I have a better relationship with Him because of it.

P.S. Bill and I have spoke and we both know - that we are more than likely going to agree to disagree but we are ok with that. No harm no foul.

My take on Angry Conversations

2009-09-28T12:47:00.000-07:00

I have been reading Susan Isaacs book, Angry Conversations with God. I
see a lot of similarities in our lives. I can identify with the loneliness associated with singleness. I have read some of the same books that say to let God fill that void in my life. Yet I still yearn
for the human form of that relationship. I can identify with the times in my life being completely and totally sold out for God and other times where that relationship with God takes a back seat. I deal with the addiction cycle as well. However, in the opposite form, Susan dealt
with anorexia and bulimia, whereas I deal with overeating. I also deal with the "disappointment" of unfulfilled dreams. I am continually dealing with the loss of a father, even though, my relationship with my dad was very different. However, I feel our fathers had a lot of the
same characteristics yet they both choose different life paths.

Where there are a lot of similarities, there are also differences. Susan chose to take God to counseling. In her life, God had a voice, a personality. In my life, God is a supreme deity with rules and even though I know in my heart that He loves me no matter what and that I
can’t "earn" His love, acceptance, or forgiveness, I still battle with trying to be perfect and following the ‘rules’. I have always had a hard time hearing His voice…if I ever have. I tend just to let things happen. Roll with the punches. When I do pray and ask for direction I feel I always pray in yes, no, or wait. I will ask and then go with my gut instinct or wherever I feel the most peace. The down fall of this tactic is that I don’t leave an option for another plan.
It usually also brings me to a point of being very indecisive. I live in a state of fear that I am making the wrong decision…you know back to that perfectionism thing.

Susan took God to counseling…she blamed Him for everything wrong in her life. She blamed Him for the way her life was turning out. Job's friends blamed him and his and/or his family’s ‘sin’. Job defends himself knowing he is blameless. I take another path and totally blame myself. I must have not heard God correctly. I must have not been diligent and consistent. I must not be strong, smart, or pretty enough. I am not worth my dreams coming to fruition. So hopefully as we continue to study Job and do our homework assignments, I can begin having confidence in myself and my ‘ability’ to hear the voice of God.

Angry Converstations with God - CT's Part 1

2009-09-28T06:51:00.000-07:00

Ever have something to say/write and it gets stuck somewhere between your brain and mouth/fingers? That has been me for a couple weeks now.

My friends are currently studying the book of Job and although I haven't been to a gathering yet, I am attempting to run along side them by doing the homework as well.

One of the homework assignments was to read one of a few selected books that had similar themes to the story of Job. One of the books on the list was ANGRY CONVERSATIONS WITH GOD by Susan Isaacs. Ironically enough I had had the book on my audible wish list for a couple months and just hadn't downloaded it yet. So seeing it mentioned for the study I thought ok I'll download and listen to it now.

Let me share a brief about the book from the website -

Angry Conversations With God began when Susan hit hit forty and found herself loveless, jobless, and living over a garage. When a churchy friend told Susan that she needed to look at her relationship with God was it like a marriage, Susan decided to take God to marriage counseling.

Angry Conversations chronicles Susan's spiritual history, from childhood faith to a midlife crisis, and all the bizarre church experiences in between.

I was raised Lutheran: Bible-believing, Jesus-loving Lutheran. But as an adult I tried everything: Pentecostals, Presbyterians, Episcopalians, Rock ’n’ Roll Slackers 4 Jesus, Actors for Yahweh. Then I said, "Screw it," and became a drunk and a slut. Well, a Lutheran slut- I only slept with two guys. Then I got sober and into AA, where I could pick whatever God I wanted. But I didn't pick God; God picked me. I've known him as long as I could remember. I’ve been washed in the blood, slain in the Spirit; I walked through the Bible, I’ve been baptized twice; I’ve done outward cleansing and inner healing. I even went through a therapy program for ex-gays, and I was never gay. Through it all, even if pastors hurt me or friends let me down or entire denominations went Shiite on my ass, I still believed God was good. Until that moment in Central Park...

I will start off by saying that I found myself sucked in from the first few minutes of listening to the book. Not only was the content something I identified with (deeply) but Susan reads the book herself. Her tone and inflection really adds a dimension to the story that would fall flat if someone else had read it or if I had just picked up the book. Hearing the depth of her voice in parts is what really cut through the muck to my heart.

I will be the first to admit that I have had many angry conversations with God. I can remember moments where, if God had a physical chest, I wailed and pounded on it. I can think of a time where I walked away - wanting absolutely nothing to do with Him or His people ever again. I have screamed, cussed, fumed, and given the silent treatment - but like Susan "Through it all, even if pastors hurt me or friends let me down or entire denominations went Shiite on my ass, I still believed God was good."

This isn't much of a book review, perhaps that will come through the next few entries but what I do what to encourage you to do - is to read/listen the book. We've all been hurt. We've all had crazy religious friends. We've all had moments of being angry. And we all need to sit back and let laughter and sarcasm help wash the wounds a bit.

Sidenote - Susan has a blog and a twitter. I really highly recommend reading and following her.

What does God sound like?

2009-09-23T07:08:00.000-07:00

I just started watching Season 1 of Joan of Arcadia. I have been impressed with it thus far. The pilot episode alone has a plethora of good stuff to chew on.

There is one scene in particular that has stood out to me.

God has just introduced himself to Joan. He tells her lots of ridiculous things about being God of the universe and all. Naturally, she does not believe him – because this God who has appeared to her is nothing like what she expected. He is not the grandfatherly white-bearded, gentle, old man. He is an attractive teenage boy who is quick-witted and sorta sarcastic.

Eventually he convinces her to take a walk and chat about the possibilities that what He is telling her is true. As they walk, Joan talks under her breath to herself, wondering if she is crazy – “God is snippy? I never imagined God would be snippy.”

He answers her with a smirk, “I am only snippy because YOU understand snippy.”

I thought that so poetic. And I can totally relate because God talks to me with the voice of a smart ass…because I “get” smart ass.

In Susan Isaac’s book, Angry Conversations With God, her therapist encourages her in her quest to take God to marriage counseling. But when she asks him who is going to play the role of God in their conversations, he basically says, “You are.” He instructs her to bring the God of her imagination to each session. What does He sound like? What does He say to you? What is His attitude toward you? What physical body language does He exhibit? Does He argue back?

Her results are intriguing - because the God who comes to meet her is snarky – which is exactly who she can relate to. Read the book. ☺

But it made me think about Job. Because one thing that intrigues me about the Job story is how God responds to him in the end. He comes in a whirlwind, with power and might. Which is perfect for Job (we will get to that in a few weeks – hehe)

All of this made me wonder though – because I have such vivid conversations with God and therefore these stories resonate with me – what does God sound like in YOUR life? Do you talk to God? What do you talk to Him about? Do you expect Him to respond? Does He? How does He respond?

Would anyone be willing to journal it out? I hope so – cause now it is an official homework assignment ☺

Just tear out a blank page from a notebook and begin a conversation with Him. About anything. Write down one sentence or thought or accusation (whatever you need) and then wait. Write it like a dialogue. You speak and then He speaks.
Limit it to 2 sentences each turn. And if you don’t hear Him say anything, write down what you sense His body language and attitude is towards you. And then keep talking. Keep begging. Keep accusing. Whatever YOU need to say.

And each turn, give Him time to respond – whether it is verbal or not. Just keep it going because in the coming weeks as we finish up Job’s story, we will be talking about this ALOT…and hopefully sharing. So start NOW! :)

Drops Like Stars?

2009-09-17T08:57:00.000-07:00

Sunday, I watched Olivia. When I got to the Bird's, she was napping. Drops Like Stars was on their end table. I didn't even realize it was a new Job Book Club option; I just liked the picture on the cover, and it seemed short, so I thought I'd browse through it while watching Split Ends and waiting for Livi to wake up.

Forty-five minutes later I was in tears. I didn't get the correlation between the book and our Job bible study at the time, although I remember thinking, "Why is everything about grief lately?! Is there no positivity anywhere?" But I did love the idea of our darkest hours being the times when we are forced out of our created safe places and from there we have the choice to become greater or to further close off our minds to creativity. A large portion of my thoughts this week have been quotes from Rob Bell.

The whole beauty of tragedy is something I've always subconsciously felt. But it is so well articulated throughout this book. Plus, it's really short. So, even if this isn't the book you chose, you could take forty-five-ish minutes and allow yourself to be empowered by a book with a pretty cover.

darci

Q&A

2009-09-16T12:55:00.000-07:00

I received an email earlier this week from Steph, asking a question about Job. We both agreed it might serve best posting our correspondence here. So here ya go!

******

Steph:
I remember the two of us talking on the porch. I had asked you about the fact that people continue to tell me that Job never cursed God. I felt that I interpreted that he did curse God for the trials he had been put through, and it was God that he blamed and not the Devil. If memory serves you had agreed that Job had cursed God. Now the umpteenth person has stated to me that Job had never cursed God even though he was put to the test. So I am trying to find some evidence and I am struggling a little, do you have a response for me. Maybe I read something differently before, now the only thing I am finding is him cursing the day he was born, but not God.

Carol:
I think this might be an issue of semantics. There might be a few things causing the confusion. And it's the fault of us being separated from Job by SO many years, and miles, and culture.

The basic gist of the book of Job is that here is a man who lives righteously, is blameless before God - both he and God know this - after all, GOD is the one who suggests Job to Satan - and all of these terrible things assault Job's life. Now we've already discussed in class how the perspective Job's friends present to him is the exact same thing Job believes in his head -- UNTIL he had everything ripped out from under him. NOW his belief system does not match up with his experience. The vast majority of the book is Job trying to wrestle through that and reconcile this discrepancy. His theology and his experience HAVE to line up. That’s how he is programmed - how he functions in the world.

In chapter 2 we read that through all of this, Job never SINNED against God.

In chapter 3, he curses the day he was born - saying he would have preferred to never have been born than to be in the situation he was in - because at least there would be some relief. He is serious about how he feels.

CURSING and SINNING are two altogether different things in this respect (in the Old Testament mind). Job will mouth off. He will accuse God of wrongdoing. He will demand that God meet him in court and defend Himself. He calls God out on the table for what he doesn't understand, for these injustices occurring in his life. I think I consider that "cursing" God. It’s not unforgivable, by any means. So he does not SIN by doing that.

What I mean by semantics is how do you define SIN and CURSE in this respect? Job will never curse God in the sense of saying "f*@k off, I want nothing more to do with You" BUT HE DEFINITELY USES SOME EXPLETIVES! He will wrestle and question and fight and accuse. But God can take it. God put him in this situation in the first place. Job never walks away from God - in fact, he takes his complaints immediately TO the Creator of the Universe. He runs TO God. And he expects Him to answer.

And God does. At the end of the book, God even says that Job is the only one - of all his friends - who has spoken rightly of God. So even though he spouts off at the mouth and speaks of things he cannot know, Job does not sin.

There is a distinction between the two words/concepts. In the Old Testament, man is never punished for outright confronting God, for questioning Him, for challenging Him even. But in today's culture, that is sometimes considered taboo or sacrilegious.

So in one sense, no, Job does not curse God - not in the "go to hell" kind of cursing. But he does use some strong language in his accusations against God - which is why I agreed with you that Job cursed God.

But I sometimes forget that my mind is totally programmed in Old Testament thinking and language, so I might have misrepresented what I meant.

Does this clear anything up? Or have I just confused you all the more?

I am just a firm believer in the fact that we can wrestle and question and demand answers from God - and still not sin. BECAUSE THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH DOING THOSE THINGS - no matter how heated it becomes. It’s part of being in relationship.

And if all of that just sounded like the teacher from Charlie Brown humming nonsense, then here is a simpler answer. The people you talk to keep saying "Job never CURSED God through his trials". . . and it seems like they are quoting scripture in that remark - chapter 2 - but the Bible doesn’t say CURSE, it says "Job never sinned against the LORD in all of this." That's where I make the distinction.

Might be one more example of how people read chapters 1-2 and 42, but nothing in between :)

******

And if anyone has any other questions, please feel free to send them my way. See, Elisabeth! Sometimes I actually take the time to answer them :)

Angry Convos, Grief Observed, and Thoughts on Job

2009-09-14T15:46:00.001-07:00

Okay, so thanks to the long car-ride from Chicago and an all day wait for a good(ish) spot at the U2 concert... I was able to read both Susan Isaacs' "Angry Conversations with God: A Snarky, but Authentic Spiritual Memoir" and C.S. Lewis' "A Grief Observed." I tried reading them with Job in mind and relating them to the Job story... however, as I never really liked (I deeply disliked) the story of Job, I ended up mostly just loving them both of their own accord.

Job

(Yes I said I deeply dislike the story of Job. For me, it has always come across as one of those horrifying folk tales shrouded in some ridiculous myth about encouragement in time of trial, grace under pressure, or the honor of being chosen for atrocities... like the chilling lyrics of "Rock-A-By-Baby" are all wrapped up in a gentle melody. I can't relate to a man who is "blameless" and a god who would would actually encourage Satan to rip him up. How is this any different than a Father pointing out his most lovely daughter to a rapist? Perhaps Job is blameless in this story, but the god here isn't. The god here is Susan Isaacs' "snarky" god in the beginning of Angry Convos. (Read it!) This is Lewis' backward god who's "goodness" is what we perceive as hurtfulness. Anyway, that's how I feel about Job. Maybe Carol will light it up better... that is her gift — here that? that's the sound of a head expanding.)

Angry Convos, and Grief Observed

So back to the books— READ THEM! THEY ROCK! They are both brave and personal accounts of the authors' deepest struggles, and whether we've experienced the same circumstances or not, we've all thought similar thoughts, and asked similar questions.

As I mentioned before both authors went through a moment, a day, or years in which they questioned who God really was... Lewis wondered if perhaps humans were so backward that what we saw as hurtful and cruel was what God saw as "good" and this "goodness" was something we'd never understand. Isaacs saw God as an imperialistic "father" who demanded her servitude, and punished each of her decisions with failure.

Another thing these two share in common was that they both deal directly with the concept of seeking first the Kingdom of God. In their moments of deepest longing for "all these things" that "will be added unto you", both authors ask the question "How does one seek first the Kingdom of God?" As I recall, both books even end here. (Most of you know how much I love questions, well this one seems to be the doozy! And of course, it is left unanswered.)

As to what they have to do with Job: both deal with loss... In Angry Convo's it's the perceived loss of her dreams, in A Grief Observed it's the devastating loss of his wife. Both of these losses were tragic for the authors because their very beings were wrapped up in that which they lost or that which they never quite obtained. Both felt incomplete, ripped apart, as I imagine Job felt. Both engaged in a dialogue with God, Isaacs' in actual conversation form, like Job, Lewis in more of a work-it-out-on-paper, let-the-thoughts-flow kind of way.

While neither Isaacs or Lewis claim to be blameless and Isaacs even takes a lot of the responsibility for things that have happened to her, maybe the biggest difference is that in the Job story, we can see behind the scenes. Maybe God showed us this terrifying behind the scenes glimpse just to show us that when we're begging for a broader picture... when we're begging God to put our lives into perspective, maybe there are some questions we really don't want answered.

The Shack

2009-09-14T10:49:00.000-07:00

Something has to be said about the fact that I actually finished the book! In ONE day. ☺ AND that I would recommend it to others – not everyone, but most people. So don’t get too excited. Ha.

It will come as no surprise to anyone who knows me that I found much of this book a little too “fluffy” - but even with that, I can appreciate what Mr. Young was trying to convey.

I don’t know that when all is said and done if the book is altogether applicable to the Job story. However, there is one aspect of the book that intrigued me. When Mack first shows up at the shack and meets Papa, He is a large, black woman. God explains to Mack that He chose to appear to Mack in this form because of Mack’s own presuppositions of an old white-bearded, wrinkled father figure – someone that Mack could not relate to given his own background and history with his earthly father.

Perhaps it is because I DO have such a solid earthly father experience that I doubt I could be as open and honest with God if He showed up in any other form. I find comfort and security in the image of God as my father. I can speak to Him openly because I know His love for me, I know He has known me since my first breath, He has watched me grow, and has provided for me my entire life. I do not mean to say that God as Father is the ONLY way I relate to God, but it is definitely one way in which I feel most comfortable.

But I thought it interesting and cool that God would appear to Mack in a way he most needed – no matter how off the wall and unprecedented it might seem to the rest of us.

Personally, I feel that Mack’s “transformation” was a bit too neat and tidy for me to relate to. I tend to argue with God a lot more and my life seems messier. Granted, Mr. Young only had 220 pages to tell the entire story, but the brevity of Mack’s struggle and questions detracted from the power of the book for me.

Other notable themes include how God can use all things for good, as well as many, many theological ideas on why God does not intervene when evil invades our lives, and how we work through that within our limited human perspective. All things that seem common sense to me – but granted, I have 2 seminary degrees – which is why I would still recommend this book to others.

Now, Katie – give me a dissertation on all things you loved about THE SHACK. :)

A Grief Observed

2009-09-14T09:10:00.000-07:00

If there is a book on this planet that is not intended to be about the book of Job, but IS all about the book of Job, then this one is it. I am not a big fan of CS Lewis. I think he talks in circles too much. But this book is simply phenomenal. It’s an emotionally touching and intellectually engaging account - a passionate and heartfelt search for answers.

The first few pages detail the physical pain of grief, in a sense wrapping skin around the Job story. I think it is hard for us to grasp all the emotional, physical, and mental turmoil Job must have suffered during just those first 7 days! The anguish from the thoughts in his head alone would have been debilitating, not to mention the boils and then later, the attacks from his friends.

I think CS Lewis does a superb job of nailing these emotions – not that he was trying to – he was just sharing his own heart and fears and questions in the face of loss – but I think in that, he was spot on for describing what Job would have also been going through. His thoughts certainly give some depth to what we are studying in Job.

This book is only 60 pages or so. I HIGHLY recommend it for anyone who wants to add a little more diversity to this reading assignment. It is SO worth your while.

other options

2009-09-04T06:13:00.000-07:00

Jimi informed me that this book was just released this week. So I'm adding it to the list of options because it sounds fitting.

Drops Like Stars: A Few Thoughts on Creativity and Suffering by Rob Bell

And Bethany is reading The Gospel According to Job by Mike Mason. Although I have not read this specific book, I did read a book by MIke Mason in seminary and it was quality stuff. So feel free to read this one as well.

What Would Job Blog?

2009-09-03T11:03:00.001-07:00

This is just a test... but if anybody has a good answer to the question... fire away!

Job Soundtrack

2009-09-02T08:50:00.001-07:00

Email me your songs. This is what has been submitted so far.

Lisha:
There are two songs right now. One is "It is Well With My Soul." If it had been written in Job's time, I feel like he would have adopted this as his personal anthem.

The other is "Never Let Go" by David Crowder Band. Speaks to me because God never let go of Job...He allowed everything to happen, but He never let go. Gives me hope too.

Darci:
Grace by Kate Havnevik. I know it's a secular song, but a lot of the words seem like something Job would pray.

"Nothing can bring me peace, I've lost everything."
"I'm on my knees, only memories are left for me to hold."
"Nothing is like it was, turn my grief to grace."

So far, this is all that I've got. But I'm going to continue to look, because while 65% of that song seems Job-y, a lot of it is a little too positive for what Job would be thinking:
"Don't know how, but I'll get by. Slowly pull myself together."

Steph:
"You Ain't Seen Nothing Yet" by Bachman Turner instantly popped into my head when we were given this assignment.

"Burning Ring of Fire" by Johnny Cash also seems fitting.

Elisabeth:
I think this is how I would be feeling if I were Job.

"Crazy For Loving You" by Patsy Cline
Crazy, I'm crazy for feeling so lonely
I'm crazy, crazy for feeling so blue
I knew you'd love me as long as you wanted
And then someday you'd leave me for somebody new
Worry, why do I let myself worry?
Wond'ring what in the world did I do?
Crazy for thinking that my love could hold you
I'm crazy for trying and crazy for crying
And I'm crazy for loving you
Crazy for thinking that my love could hold you
I'm crazy for trying and crazy for crying
And I'm crazy for loving you.

AND

You Really Got a Hold on Me - performed by She and Him
I don't like you
But I love you
Seems that I'm always
Thinkin' of you
Oh, ho, ho, you treat me badly
I love you madly

You've really got a hold on me
(You really got a hold on me)
You really got a hold on me
(You really got a hold on me)

I don't want you
But I need you
Don't wanna kiss you
But I need to
Oh, ho, ho You do me wrong now
My love is strong now

I love you and all I want you to do
Is just
Hold me
Hold me
Hold me
Hold me

I wanna leave you
Don't wanna stay here
Don't wanna spend another day here
Oh ho ho, I wanna split now
I just can't quit now
You've really got a hold on me

Carol:
I think from the moment the first servant came running into Job's presence to declare his news of loss, followed by many more adding to the pile- through the dust and ashes of silent mourning and then throughout the three cycles of speeches Job gives, the song I imagine screaming through Job's soul is "Silence" by Jars of Clay.

And at the end, when all is said and done, when God has appeared to Job, jolted him out of his finite human perspective, and restored his life to him, I imagine "God Of All Splendor" playing on repeat in his mind...as if he can think of nothing more fitting to say than the praises expressed in those lyrics.

Katie:
Rescue by Seabird
I'm pushin up daisies, wish they were roses................

I'm pushing up daisies, I wish they were roses
I feel like I'm drowning but nobody knows it
I'm pushing up daisies, I wish they were roses
I feel like I'm dying, just want you to notice

somehow the grave has captured me
show me the man I used to be
just when I feel my breath is running out

the earth moves and you find me, alive but unworthy
broken and empty, but you don't care
cuz you are my rapture, you are my savior
when all my hope is gone, I reach for you
you are my rescue
you are my rescue

I'm swimming to safety, but even with my best
if I don't see that rope soon, this might be my last breath

somehow the grave has captured me
show me the man I used to be
just when I feel my breath is running out

the earth moves and you find me, alive but unworthy
broken and empty, but you don't care
because you are my rapture, you are my savior
when all my hope is gone, I reach for you
you are my rescue

don't let me drown
can you hear me
cuz I am
I'm underground
won't you pull me out

the earth moves and you find me, alive but unworthy
broken and empty, but you don't care
because you are my rapture, you are my savior
when all my hope is gone, I reach for you
you are my rescue
you are my rescue
yeah, you are my REScue
yeah! you are MY resCUE

I'm pushing up daisies, I wish they were roses
I feel like I'm dying, just want you to notice...

Who is God?

2009-09-01T12:11:00.000-07:00

Place your answer to Homework Week #1 here as a comment. Basically, just evaluate your relationship with God and pick out ONE thing - the most basic, irrefutable fact about God that is true in your life. Something that you KNOW is true about Him, that no one or no circumstance or trial could convince you of otherwise. Feel free to give examples of how you came to know this was true.

Welcome

2009-09-01T11:11:00.000-07:00

Hey all! I have had a lot of people coming to me outside of the Sunday night classes and asking questions or sharing personal insights they are learning from our Job study. So I thought it might be a good idea to open up a different format for those things to be shared, to help keep us connected throughout the week. So here you go - the GIOTGU blog! Please just email me the posts you would like to add - song ideas, thoughts on Job's story, responses to your homework assignments, etc - and check back often to stay connected :)